#664, #665, #666, and #667: Four Questions From People Who Are Basically Fine

48 thoughts on “#664, #665, #666, and #667: Four Questions From People Who Are Basically Fine”

1. Not a Leader – I highly recommend Jen Dziura http://www.thegloss.com/author/jdziura/ for the state of being a young woman and moving up in the ranks/leadership.

2. Oh man! Media training is so hard. SO HARD. There is a reason why most people who go on camera are highly trained and get paid a lot (it’s because it’s so hard.) otherwise, actual field climatologists and professional political analysts would deliver the news and weather, and politics would be a lot more interesting, and a lot of people would be out of work… Because it’s a specific set of skills and behaviors that one has to memorise, and then pretend that one is not thinking about them at all.

   I do film interviews with scientists these days and tbh sweating happens to everyone. The lights are hot! As the Captain says: y’all got glands. It’s cool.

   Seriously, 666? I’m so proud of you, good job. That was not easy, and it sounds like you were pitched in at the deep end and came out with a gold medal.

   1. Yes, being on TV or being filmed really is a learning curve-thing. My first time, I saw myself after and had that reaction you get from hearing yourself singing on tape. Is that how I really sound? Kitteh noooo! But I promise it got better.

      1. I was on TV once, as an extremely self-conscious teenager, for a 10-minute human interest Valentine’s Day story. It was all about me and my boyfriend as HS sweethearts. Unfortunately, he was Darth Vader boyfriend, and I was beyond desperately trying to get away from him, and not succeeding because the whole school thought of us as destined for each other (hence why, when the TV station called, the school gave them our name as exemplary HS sweethearts). So out in the wilds (and probably in my parents’ video collection somewhere), is a ten minute tape of me as a sweaty, nervous wreck, being made to act lovey-dovey with someone I didn’t even want to be near any more. Including the most choreographed kiss in HS history. Seriously, they made us do six takes of the thing while they filmed from every angle. If I could find every copy to burn, I would.

         1. SIX takes?! Yikes.

   2. I don’t know if that kind of comment/advice is appropriate but I’m going to leave that here :

      I’ve worked with costume professionals for theater and movies, and to avoid the underarm stains on stage or on set, they often use sweat pads. They’re like panty liners, but for your armpits (and it’s not very glamorous, but if you can’t find sweat pads, panty liners will do fine as well). They work better than antiperspirant.

      So if you’re afraid this might happen again, that can be a solution.

      1. Yes, dress shields are a thing. And, as this vintage ad states, they can help you achieve “gay abandon”!

   3. For school I have to videotape myself and then review the tapes in detail. It’s absolutely excruciating and I hate it. I wasn’t surprised by #666’s reaction, because if it were me I could be spouting solid gold wisdom and I’d still be like “NOPE, SHUT IT DOWN, NO ONE SEES THIS EVER.”

3. LW1: Though all of the Captain’s options are possible, I would lean towards thinking that you’re fine and just getting to know each other. I had similar thoughts when I first started dating my boyfriend – there are people in my life I have longer and more in-depth conversations and more aligned pop culture interests with, and this in no way diminishes our relationship. We also don’t stay up all night talking like I did with some of my exes, but we still have the best connection I’ve ever known. I think it’s reasonable to give your connection a chance and see how it plays out. Plus, are some of these skype conversations? Because my boyfriend and I just became long distance and we definitely sometimes don’t know what to talk about on skype, and it’s often just catching up and relatively brief conversations plus some silly smiling at the camera and trying to make “eye contact”.

   1. Yes, I agree with 30ish. I’ve also found that communication is more of a spectrum than is generally acknowledged. Game of Thrones is a great example for this: I have friends where our conversations about the show are literally just all caps, high pitched “CAN YOU BELIEVE THE THING THAT HAPPENED AHHHH,” I have conversations with another friend that are feminist critiques, the conversations with my boyfriend tends to lean more towards character analysis. And at one point I would have thought “not all of these conversations are equal,” but you know what? They are. It’s all about hitting your communication stride in a relationship (romantic or otherwise) and I think maybe your jerkbrain is freaking out that you haven’t hit that stride yet, when really you just need more time for things to fall into place.

      1. It took me a really long time to realize this, but… my boyfriend is not my friend-friend. I want different things from that relationship, and that’s OK. In friend-friends, I optimize for brilliant thinkers who push me intellectually and politically, and make me laugh until I cramp up– but I don’t care about how they manage their money. In partners, I optimize for goofy, kind people who have compatible goals and make me feel safe and supported– but I don’t need them to blow my mind conceptually on a regular basis. It’s easy for me to fall into the idea that romantic relationships don’t count unless they fill EVERY need to the MAX, but actually we get to have more than one important relationship in our lives. It’s okay for different relationships to be good in different ways, and it’s okay for an important need to come from someone other than your romantic partner.

         (I’m bi, so I also get jerkbrain from both sides. When boyfriends are different than my [mostly female] friends, the relationships are bad because it’s not like it’s a REAL friendship, it’s just a web of horniness and heterosexist role models. When girlfriends are similar to my other female friends, the relationships don’t count because it’s just bffs with kissing, not REAL romance.)

4. LW #667, I would recommend AGAINST reading or watching sci-fi and fantasy in the hopes of learning How To Be A Leader for the simple reason that IT’S FICTION. Those characters … well, they aren’t real. They only exist, they only succeed, they only do anything because an author wrote them that way. You don’t have an author looking out for you; modeling yourself on someone who only gets by because their universe was literally made for them to succeed isn’t a recipe for success.

   1. I did not mean that as a serious alternative to management training. More of a drinking game where you drink every time a superhero who is between pretty good and great at most things (like our dear LW) undervalues themselves and says “But I can’t possibly lead!”

      1. Or! If you’re into historical fiction, Bernard Cornwell’s stock main character (Sharpe, Thomas of Hookton, Uhtred Ragnarson, etc.) will always, ALWAYS be a great leader who cannot possibly lead because [REASONS], and then leads to excellent effect.

         1. Just chiming in with some Bernard Cornwell love.

   2. Finding a fictional character you identify with on some level can be a real-life kick in the pants. If Princess Bubblegum can create candy zombies and run a kingdom and everything else she does, I’m capable of filing my taxes correctly! (and so on)

5. #667, I don’t know how possible this is for you, but in your leadership training courses, try to identify women (maybe women who are leading the course) who you like and respect and who also seem to be like you. I went to a leadership training and we all did personality profiles (which, whatever, but it seemed to work for me) and one of the female course leaders had a very similar style and personality profile to mine. She talked at length, as did some of the other people, about how their styles affected their management skills, people skills, etc.

   If you can find a female role model like that, it’s inspiring. I didn’t ask her to be a more formal contact for me, but if there is someone you feel you connect with, there’s nothing wrong with asking if you can pick their brain about leadership styles, questions, etc., at some point.

   1. I went to a “communication skills for women” seminar last year, and found it somewhat helpful. It addressed issues that women often have trouble with like how to take the floor during meetings, how to stop people from interrupting you, and how to stand up to mean people. Something like that might be helpful for you!

6. As someone who tends to be chronically late (largely because: anxiety), I echo the Captain’s advice to LW2. I am usually excruciatingly aware if my own lateness is also screwing up other people’s plans. It becomes part of my own internal monologue, which stresses me out even more and exacerbates my anxiety, creating a feedback loop of doom that can easily ruin my day (and possibly everyone else’s).

   I really appreciate it when people construct plans in such a way that I’m only responsible for myself, and I extra love it when they make it clear to me that they aren’t judging me and are sensitive to the fact that things that are easy for some people can be inexplicably, ridiculously difficult for me. (Example: “We got a table already, can I order you something?”)

   I do want to add a general comment to everyone who has internalized that narrative about how “being late is disrespectful”. Please stop doing that. Treating my punctuality as a referendum on how much I like you is inaccurate, as well as misery-inducing for everyone involved. Not everyone is good at getting specific places at specific times, for a variety of reasons. It’s not always a skill we can learn, or something we can fix.

   It took me years to figure out that a huge part of my problem is anxiety, and much of that time was spent beating myself up for being a huge jerk, because of the “if you really cared about me, you wouldn’t be late” thing. The additional pressure of “I am a terrible person and my friend is going to think I hate them” doesn’t really help anything.

   (See also: canceling on things and being called a “flake”. Sorry, sometimes I don’t have spoons. Sometimes, because I really want to do a thing, I don’t admit to myself until the last minute that I don’t have the spoons to do it. My friends are sympathetic to this and don’t lay guilt trips on me because of it. Being able to forgive myself for it and move on is a huge factor in doing it less frequently.)

   1. Infinity+ to this.

      I’m late due to the combined effects of AD(H)D and anxiety. If I’m not anxious, I’m distracted, but not because I don’t love you or respect your time!

   2. Anxiety. Yes.

      I’ve realised lately how I came to be a person who always arrives at the last minute, particularly when they’re not certain of their welcome: I was bullied at school, and coming early meant having to endure fun games that ended with my things being kicked around, spilled, and oh, dear, dropped in puddles. Being right on time or a couple of minutes late meant that the teacher was there already and I was safe for the time being.

      (it also took me years to drop the optimism that a journey taken on average 15 mins would always take no more than 15 mins).

      It’s a lousy habit to carry in adulthood, but I’m suddenly feeling much more forgiving of my younger self.

   3. Came here to say something similar. My lateness has nothing to do with anyone else. It happens because it happens. I am much more likely to be late to things that I think will be fun, because instead of freaking out about any part of it, I am relaxed and anticipating enjoyment, and for me part of that is not stressing out about being on time–because Being On Time is a significant source of stress for me. When someone has to make my lateness about them, A) are they serious? and B) whatever I was planning to do with them becomes less fun in direct proportion to how much pressure they put on me.

      1. But you being late does make it significantly about them. They’re spending 15 or 30 or however many minutes basically doing nothing but waiting for you… It can be extremely hard to deal with, especially if it’s subtracting from time they would have spent doing something else. (waiting to enter an exhibit would be worse for me than, say, holding a seat in the movie theater.).
         That being said, I have friends who are chronically late and I work around them and lie about start times and plan things where waiting is not awful so I’m not annoyed or bored when they show up so it’s not the worse thing in the world at all. I can’t change who they are so I plan around it and don’t complain to them – they know.
         But it’s a lot of extra consideration on my part, though of course if I’m doing it it’s because they’re worth it.

         1. I think that’s the key – if you have someone in your life who’s generally late, you don’t like that, and you want to keep them in your life, then the two of you need to figure out a solution that meets both people’s needs, such as the different things you suggested.

            Unfortunately what I see frequently is the non-late person never using their words effectively and just getting frustrated and/or shouty, and then frustrated that the shoutiness doesn’t fix anything, ad infinitum. I assume a similar cycle happens in the usually-late person that is similarly not helping.

         2. Wow, assumptions. But carry on; don’t let me get in the way.

            1. And, that’s the thread! Thanks for playing, everyone.

         3. As you said, people with chronic punctuality issues know that it annoys others and it is considered rude. It holds them back professionally and socially, and they tend to carry a lot of shame and anxiety about it, which makes the whole thing worse. I’m glad you have workarounds with your friends. Keep doing that thing.

            I’m closing comments, b/c the queue is full of “late people are SO RUDE” and “But don’t you see that I really struggle to make my brain work differently?” and very few attempts to see the other person’s point of view. Liberal-minded people like me and like most who read this site share a common fallacy that if we just logic at someone enough about something that they will agree with us. This is one of those times that it’s not the case. It’s not going to get solved here, today, so consider the forums, people with strong opinions either way. They have a team of mods and not one cranky lady with deadlines.

7. #655: I had a friend in college who was always late to everything. Classes, lectures, meals, movie dates, etc. No matter how excited she was for it, there was no way she would ever be there on time. It became Group Protocol to tell her to show up 30 minutes before the rest of us planned to get together. After that, she ended up always being on time! Everyone else was happy that they didn’t have to wait for her, and she was happy that she was no longer being nagged about being late. I’m not sure she ever figured out why no one was complaining about it anymore, but it worked out well for all of us.

   1. I know this is a common thing but it just seems infantilizing.

      1. It can be, but I think it depends on the situation. We had already tried talking to her about it extensively, and that didn’t work out. She didn’t have her own transportation and we didn’t want to leave her out, and this is the only solution that made everyone happy. I wouldn’t recommend it as a first choice, but when you’ve exhausted every other option and you want to find a way to include them without inconveniencing others, I don’t think it’s a bad thing to find adaptations to how they do things instead of just leaving them out.

      2. I think it can be, but it can also be a way to afford the time-challenged person some cushion. Just like, I don’t know, offering to carry a heavy package for someone… whether it comes across as condescending is very context-dependent.

         Thinking about it, “infantilizing” carries an interesting implication, like: “any human being who is not a baby should be able to do this without help, this is like Adulting 101 here, seriously.”

         In reality I think that accommodating and adapting to each other’s needs isn’t weird, it’s just how friendship works. If you bring soup to a sick friend or choose a restaurant that’s accessible so a friend in a wheelchair can come along, no one would read that as infantilizing them. The important thing is that the workaround works for everyone, instead of breeding silent resentment.

         I’ve had people in my life, over the years, who were unable to let go of the “you being late means you secretly hate me” narrative, and I eventually found that the best thing for both of us was to accept that we were not compatible as friends. It’s 100% okay if lack of punctuality is a deal-breaker, but wow do we have a bizarre cultural/moral narrative about it. (Something about capitalism, the cult of productivity, time==money, and punching your timecard at the factory, no doubt…)

         1. Obviously that isn’t always the case, but 90% of my experiences have been with people saying “Oh, Cumbersnatch Humperwhale is always late, let’s just lie to his face and tell him it starts an hour earlier than it really does. It’s the best thing for everyone.” And maybe it really is the best, but it just feels yucky to me.

            I agree with the incompatibility. As an on time or early-person I find it best to be acquaintances or low grade-friends with the time-challenged. It feels better for me than lying.

8. The problem with seeing or hearing recordings of yourself, #666, is that you already know what you did, and you know you’re not going to learn anything from what you had to say, so instead of concentrating on what video-you is talking about – which is what everyone else is doing – you’re concentrating on anything else you can find. I suspect some people will notice the sweat-marks, and they will probably not be fussed, because let’s face it, humans sweat. But most people will be concentrating on what you and your fellow panelists are saying and your body language, and if you went to them and said “You know I had awful sweat marks in that clip you just watched” they’d go “Oh, did you? I didn’t really look.”

9. What does the Dunning-Krueger effect have to do with that letter? It’s the exact opposite of Impostor Syndrome — it’s where you think you’re better than you are, usually because you’re a big fish in a small pond.

   Also, regarding late people…I feel like there are two kinds of folks in the world, those who make a huge deal out of lateness and those who don’t. I personally am of the latter persuasion; I think there are way ruder things to do than to be a bit late, and because of just how many circumstances can cause lateness, I think people should just deal. After all, why yes, I *do* value 30 minutes of my own time at home over tapping my foot somewhere less nice and comfortable because I got there too early, or over your not having to wait five minutes. Some people will call that selfish, maybe it is, but I despise sitting around being bored. I also have no problem if others are late, because if I already arrived somewhere, it’s not like I have anything better to do than stand around for a little while. Someone will always be late. It’s a rule of life. So I just don’t let it bother me. I personally feel that being mad about someone’s lateness falls into the same category nowadays as being mad that someone didn’t say “thank you” upon having someone hold the door for them. It’s a slight social faux pas, but you’re getting too worked up if you care that much.

   Tip: if you want late people to be on time, just tell them to arrive at an earlier time than you intend.

   I’m considering “lateness” here to be like…5-10 minutes. Once 15 has crossed, you get into “well we might miss an event” or “the person may not even be coming” territory, and that’s less okay.

   1. Part of the Dunning-Kruger effect is that highly competent people underestimate their competence. From the link in the OP: “The authors found that when researchers presented subjects with moderately difficult tasks, the best and the worst performers actually varied little in their ability to accurately predict their performance. Additionally, they found that with more difficult tasks, the best performers were less accurate in predicting their performance than the worst performers.”

      1. Whoops! Didn’t know that. 🙂 Now I know.

   2. I’m in the 5-15 minutes is okay camp, too. That’s reasonable wiggle room.

   3. “After all, why yes, I *do* value 30 minutes of my own time at home over tapping my foot somewhere less nice and comfortable because I got there too early, or over your not having to wait five minutes. Some people will call that selfish, maybe it is, but I despise sitting around being bored. I also have no problem if others are late, because if I already arrived somewhere, it’s not like I have anything better to do than stand around for a little while.”

      Actually, I think this could also describe how people feel when their friends are chronically late. (Hell, I get stressed if I’m leaving the house later than I think I should, and even I don’t get the point to arriving somewhere 30 minutes *early.*) So when my friends are running late, I appreciate an update just for those reasons outlined. If I have an extra 20 minutes to kill, my house is more comfortable for me too! I can spend the extra time getting ready at a more leisurely pace or doing a chore.

      Maybe for Alcor waiting after getting to the place is better than leaving home later. For me it depends. I can kill time at a shopping mall, but if it’s a train station or somewhere where I have to stand outside… However, I totally agree with telling people to come early. 🙂 No shame in a little cunning!

10. Dear LW #664: It’s only a problem if it’s a problem.

    Which is not meant to be gnomic, I swear! But, basically, if it’s a dealbreaker or a big deal for either of you to have this particular kind of interaction in your romance, that’s a problem.

    If the two of you don’t have ENOUGH interest and style overlap to keep an enjoyable and interesting interaction going, then it’s a problem.

    If you have tons to do and say together but there’s also tons of stuff you do with other people, then that’s not a problem.

    In general my experience is that structural definitions of relationships (if it HAS X, Y, and Z, it is This Kind Of Relationship) aren’t as useful as functional ones (if it DOES X, Y, and Z [for each person’s own personal variables] then it is The Kind I Want To Keep Having).

    Is this the kind of relationship you want to keep having, give or take the odd bit of mutually-negotiated tweaking?

11. LW#4 – 2 years ago I spent a year in leadership training within my organisation. We are a global company of c. 6000 people and I was one of 13 people to be selected as one of our Leaders Of The Future. When we first got together as a group, the one thing we all had in common was that we all felt that we didn’t really deserve to be there, and we all had issues with our confidence. So it is definitely not unusual to feel this way! Over the course of that year we all learned a lot, had a great time, and built connections (ones that I still call on – and go out for drinks with! – two years down the line). I also grew in confidence, partly due to the training but a lot of it was down to talking to other people and realising that most people don’t ever really think of themself as a leader – you just do leadership-y things and you get better at it the more you practice. The most useful module of the course that I did was an amazing opportunity to go to China and talk to business leaders from a variety of other industries about what it’s like to lead in their organisations. We met people with such a variety of leadership styles, which really helped me to understand what kind of leader I wanted to be (there were two women in particular, both running big tech divisions of global companies, who were brilliant, energetic and ethical).

    Our trip was arranged by a company called Leader’s Quest (http://www.leadersquest.org) and I’m sure it wasn’t cheap, but it was brilliant. They do run quests where they bring together groups of individuals, but if that is impossible, then perhaps you could work with your bosses to get in touch with leaders of other businesses in your local area to talk about their experience of leading. They may have people they’re training up too who would be interested in your Exec Director’s take on leading, so it could even be a “you speak to my team member, I speak to yours” arrangement that wouldn’t cost anything – plus everyone likes to be asked to give their expert opinion! I would say that it helps if the leaders are from other industries as it helps you to concentrate on the leadership aspect rather than the business one, if that makes sense!

    I’d also recommend finding a good mentor, someone you admire who is willing to talk some of this through with you, and building your network of professional contacts (not necessarily “networking”, but finding people you can really talk to and trust!).

12. Dear Smart and Sweaty – one time a news piece was done on my lab because… I don’t know. Something that had been developed before I started there suddenly got noticed. Anyway, the department head got to do an interview in his very posh office with the news person, and then the cameras just kind of floated around the lab space looking for footage of GROUND-BREAKING SCIENCE to intersperse the segment with. I was at my desk and not doing science, so I didn’t pay much attention. Which turned out to be a fatal flaw, because on a national news program there was suddenly a clip of me, slouching at my desk with Hello Kitty headphones on, writing fanfiction on my work computer. If I could trade you for those sweaty pits, I would.

    But it’s amazing what people don’t notice. We were all on tenterhooks the day after the program aired due to the multiple health and safety violations in the lab footage (everything from my headphones, to someone eating while sciencing). Very few people watch something with the intent to find flaws, and if you’re talking about something with expertise then most of the attention is going to be on understanding you. I’m glad that you feel good about your contribution because I’m sure that’s what people will focus on 🙂

    1. Eating While Sciencing is my next band name.

13. “Not A Leader” might enjoy checking out the website http://www.succeedsocially.com. It’s organized topically, so you can pick and choose based on your time/interest/level of anxiety. Of course there’s tons of great stuff on this blog, too, so excellent choice to write in. 😀

14. As for lateness, you make a deal with yourself once-and-for-all-style –how long you are willing to invest in overtime, and then cut loose at that point.

    I will generally give ten minutes or so. If I stay any longer–I blame myself.

    The thing I’ve learned about late people, is they don’t get upset if you cut-loose nearly as much it upsets you that they were late. So cut-loose!

    The worst for me was in my early 30s, trying to leave my SO’s parents’ house who live a long-weekends drive away… The extended goodbyes, on the door step — are casual and typical, then a quick mention of Aunty Doris, which segues into a trip down memory lane that segues into a dissertation on local family lore… Town history…Ungh?

    I’m too polite to say, come on… It’s a four hour drive, and at every turn the conversation seems to be on the verge of wrapping up anyway. I’m like a tongue-tied radio host not sure where to step in. This is a kind of “lateness” I despise. The I thought we were already-ready lateness. Like when the host sets the meal down, then disappears indefinitely behind a screen and we thought it was tea time but feel rude to start.

    We’ve now done the French two-cheek kiss-thing (Québec) 3 separate times over the last hour thinking, at the time.. That was it! And again, some mention of a way loose thread and they are back jazzing about old time family tales, health stories and births, I know none of the characters, trying to be polite coz they’re all *Doctors* and hey, these are my SO’s parents, and they see each other less.

    Finally, 90 minutes going through our goodbyes!. Made more compromising since my SO had withdrawn and not said a word the entire weekend as I tried holding my own around her French-speaking family.

    This happened on several occasions and I felt powerless.

    Today, having read CA, I would at the then minute mark have announced confidantly according to some plan: “Hey, you guys still have some stuff to chortle about, I am.going to just stretch my legs before the LOOOONG drive (sigh) home.”

    1. Oh man, the endless goodbye. My parents and I tend to fall into that without thinking (of course).

       A while back I just mentioned that I had noticed it and wanted to stop, so at some point I would start announcing “ok, leaving now!” and then hugs and I was out the door. The first time or two it felt a little abrupt and rude, but That faded. I’ll even reference it specifically (“no Minnesota goodbyes, folks”). Might be harder with inlaws though. 😐

15. LW #667: I highly recommend reading through the archives of http://www.getbullish.com/. I have zero connection whatsoever, but her stuff is tailor-made for people in your position, and she’s an excellent (nerdy + female) writer to boot.

    1. I didn’t notice before posting that a previous commenter had linked to the same author (I looked for Bullish but not Jen Dziura). Sorry for the double recommendation!

16. My local extended-family-by-marriage has that one relative, who is nice and kind and funny and thoughtful and late to ALL THE THINGS. Including the potluck things to which she is bringing a food thing. And the non-potluck things that include things that have to happen by a certain time because most of us (not this relative) have to get up and go work at half past thing in the morning.

    So when the family phone tree starts humming for family gatherings, we all conspire to tell her that the gathering starts an hour earlier than it actually does. She’s on time, the food isn’t gone/cold, she can participate in all the things, and everybody is happy.

    Has anybody actually told her that this is what we do? Heck no. She’s too old and has too many troubles to be obsessing over changing this one habit at this stage of her life. We just…adjust.

Comments are closed.