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Links of Friday Linkiness

Please allow me to re-answer this one question that recently appeared at The Hairpin:

So I’ve been “seeing” (i.e. boning) this guy for a couple weeks. I haven’t gone down on him yet because I wasn’t sure he’d reciprocate and that pisses me off. So tonight, he said “you’re not too much of a feminist to go down on a guy, are you?” to which I responded truthfully that I’m not, DUH. I actually really enjoy it (but, I do have issues with people who feel it’s perfectly fine for me to go down when they find the reverse unappealing). Then he goes, “good, because I’m too masculine to go down on a girl.” UM, WHAT!? was my inner response although I’d sort of expected it since he hadn’t made any moves (but was still kind of hoping he’d come around; he’s a bit inexperienced/very young and I thought maybe he was just afraid to botch it). I told him that some dudes love it, at which point he told me some dudes are weird and asked if I’d ever done it (negative, for the record, which seemed to weaken my point in his eyes).

So here’s my question: this is what I want, but I feel weird/manipulative holding BJs hostage in return for something he clearly isn’t interested in/ready for. Is it unfair to pressure him like that? Plus, it’s obviously no fun for me if he’s gritting his teeth (so to speak) through the whole thing. But at this point I also don’t want to give him a free ride on my mouth. Should I lose this guy or is there an appropriate and effective way to approach this? Oh, also, we work together. Also, is he gay? I have never encountered this before.

You should definitely not pressure people into doing sex things they don’t like. But if someone claims that they are “too masculine” to go down on you in the same conversation where they are trying to get you to go down on them, it’s okay to laugh. Because that isn’t actually a reason. From me, this guy would get a “Well, if you ever decide to try it out, let me know.” I would not make any promises or ultimatums about reciprocity. But also, my face would probably not go near his dick and, to be honest, I would probably phase out the relationship and look for someone with more willingness to experiment. And I’d definitely look for someone who doesn’t use “you’re not some kind of feminist, right?” as a neg. Because my automatic response to that is “Um, I’m definitely feeling too feminist to go down on YOU, SPECIFICALLY, so thanks for saving us both a lot of trouble by asking that question.”

Have you guys seen Arlette’s post on creepiness? Relevant to our interests, I think.

Also relevant to our interests, Amy Poehler answers the question “What do you do when you lose a friend?”

Finally, the good people at Unfuck Your Habitat have released an app. They thought it would be of interest to the good people here, and sent me a free demo copy in the hopes that I would write about it. Sadly, I don’t have an i-thingy that will run it so I can’t tell you if it’s any good.  This will have to be the extent of me writing about it, at least until the Android version is released.

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54 comments
  1. TheOtherAlice said:

    OK, just my personal opinion but anyone who says the words “you’re not too feminist to go down on a guy?” really really ought to be dumped. Honestly, you can do better. And! Get oral from a guy who enjoys it!

    • JenniferP said:

      Yeah, what a weird neg. “Show me you’re not some uptight FEMINIST…by sucking it!”

      • TheOtherAlice said:

        Also, I would like to point out to him that I know plenty of feminists who give head. But it’s possible, nay PROBABLE, they would run screaming from him

      • Sheelzebub said:

        That followed by “I’m too MASCULINE to reciprocate! My dick is made of ice cream and rainbows and your pussy is gross” is, well, a DTMFA-able offense.

  2. “You’re not too feminist to go down” is triple-horrible, because to prove it wrong and win his (no doubt very valuable) affections, you have to:

    A) Prove that you’re not “too much” of a feminist–reassure him that you think women are people, but you don’t go so far as to explore all the implications of women being people.

    B) Sell out feminism by agreeing with him that it’s all about being no-fun and unsexy.

    C) Go down on him just to prove a goddamn point, instead of because it’s something you actually want to do.

    Ew, ew, GIANT EW, and lose the guy.

  3. Britt said:

    “Definitely feeling too feminist to go down on YOU, SPECIFICALLY” is the response I would go with in that situation, no doubt! I don’t even necessarily mind all that much if it’s just not something a guy I’m with is all that into, but pulling the “you’re not some gross, dick-hating feminist, are you?” is just… ew.

  4. If, for whatever reason, you want to continue fucking this guy for a little while longer before you dump the motherfucker, the solution to your problem is simple: You like giving head, but obviously not to everyone. I hear the dicks of men who go down taste like candy and the dicks of men who don’t taste like rat droppings. You’re only into candy-dicks. It’s not pressure. You’re just expressing a preference, like he is.

    • JenniferP said:

      Well-said. Also, I wish people understood that the best way to convince people to try new stuff in bed is to a) continually make them feel awesome b) pay close attention to their reactions and enjoyment.

      You make me feel great in bed? And you stop immediately when you get a signal that I’m not so into it? Sure, let’s try that crazy thing you want to do – it will probably feel awesome, and if it doesn’t, I trust that you’ll knock it off immediately.

  5. sasha said:

    Yeah, so not cool. I’ve dated guys like this before, though minus the weird feminist neg. I usually ended up still going down on them because I enjoyed it, but eventually getting resentful about it. Since I’ll be re-entering the dating world after several years in a relationship where this was not a problem in the slightest, I’m filing the Cap’s “Well, if you ever feel like trying it…” comment away for (potential, but hopefully unnecessary) future use.

  6. There was a period of time during which I included the words “I am a feminist” on my online dating profile precisely to weed out dudes that can’t deal. I eventually took it out and replaced it with more indirect measurements of woman-friendliness (some of your friends are women; some of your favorite books are by women) because I got tired of reporting drive-by veiled threats and having OKC do absolutely nothing. But my point is: lots of young men don’t understand feminism. Choosing not to fuck young men who are derisive of feminism does drastically reduce the size of your dating pool, but the remaining pool is far less slimy and buggy and dead-leafy, so I recommend it. Men who get defensive and neggy about feminism are not mature enough for mutual satisfying sexytimes.

    • JenniferP said:

      One of the things in my former dating profile was “When I say ‘I’m a feminist’, you say ‘neat, me too!’ Let’s fuck in a way that also fucks the patriarchy.”

      It was remarkably effective in weeding out people whose dicks I never want to touch.

      • Robot Rose said:

        Just want to say that that is both spectacularly hilarious, and sounds marvelously effective.

      • withywindling said:

        Oh I love that. Can I yoink that (with attribution, of course) for mine??

        • JenniferP said:

          Sure!

    • drst said:

      I had both “fat” and ‘feminist” in my OKC profile. Also “liberal.” I was a triple threat!

      I had “bibliophile” in there until I realized I was getting creepy-ass messages from Christian dudes wanting a baby-maker because they thought it mean Bible-phile.

      • Ethyl said:

        Oh geez. That made me lolsob right there.

  7. Travis said:

    “Masculine sex” sounds dull as hell

    Honestly, I’d be pretty weary of anyone who claims to have a “firm” definition of sex. Newt Gingrich famously only received oral sex from his mistresses because it didn’t count as “real sex” to him [citation needed, but you know the type]. What you define as “sex” or “sex times” is something you constantly work with your partner on, not something you maintain total control over and hold up against everything you do with them and rate on a scale of “totally” to “not at all” (or bizarrely, “feminine” to “masculine”) sex. Someone who insists that sex is only what they say it is is not a sexhaver, they are an agendahaver.

    • I bet you dollars to highly gendered donuts that this same guy who thinks going down on a woman is “not masculine” also thinks lesbians are “too masculine.”

      That’s the problem with making invisible rules in your head for everybody else’s sexuality. It gets so confusing!

    • withywindling said:

      “Masculine sex” suggests they’d be terrified of having stuff in their ass. If you genuinely don’t care for it, fine. But I give you side-eye if you’re just afraid of seeming “gay” somehow.

    • I don’t know how common that definition of sex is outside the southeastern US, but it’s REALLY common down here in the Bible Belt. Nonmarital sex is a BIG BAD SIN, but “sex” = PIV, and anything (and everything) else doesn’t count. I knew two girls in high school — one who’d had mostly oral and manual not-sex with a lot of different guys, and one who’d done things I’d never even heard of with one guy exclusively. They were both devout Southern Baptist virgins who weren’t going to have sex until they were married.

  8. I don’t see a link for the Amy Poehler one. (Sorry, I have nothing pithy to say about blow job dude. I’m still trying to recover from rolling my eyes super hard at him.)

    • JenniferP said:

      The video is embedded in the post but I’ll add a link as well.

      • Oh! I couldn’t see anything because I use Chrome and I have NoScript up. It treats embedded videos very weirdly. Thank you!

  9. I would be wary of anyone who earnestly utters the phrase “too feminist” in *any* context.

    • alphakitty said:

      I’m not sure there is such a thing as ‘too feminist.’ But there’s definitely such a thing as ‘not feminist enough!’

  10. Sheelzebub said:

    Anyone who thinks you should go down on him but that he’s too good to go down on you is a shitbag and you should stop boning him. Do not train him. Do not hang out with him. He has shown you that he’s an entitled misogynist douchecanoe. Find someone who’s not an entitled misogynist douchecanoe.

    And you know what? Tell him why you won’t be fucking him anymore. “I’m not too feminist to go down on you, but you’re obviously too fucking entitled and uptight to reciprocate. Bye.”

    • GemmaM said:

      It’s those words “too good to” that make your statement true, also. I mean, I’m quite willing to forgo that particular act as part of my sex life, because it’s not my favourite thing, but there’s no way I’d be happy with a guy saying “your pussy is too disgusting and/or threatens my masculinity, sorry”. You wanna play with it, you better appreciate it.

      • Sheelzebub said:

        You’d be surprised (or maybe you wouldn’t be) at the scads of slut-shaming and moralizing about What a Bad and Shallow Person I Am for asserting this elsewhere.

    • C.D. said:

      “Do not train him.”
      Indeed. Remember, you are not the douche-whisperer.

      • Private Editor said:

        +1 million for “douche-whisperer.”

        • JenniferP said:

          + 1 BILLION million.

          • C.D. said:

            Incidentally, “The Douche-Whisperer” is the name of my upcoming movie.
            Can you say “blockbuster?”

      • Sheelzebub said:

        Holy shit I am so stealing douche-whisperer!

  11. The UfYH app rocks. It has a reward system, so you can earn stars which is nice for us who are motivated by visible achievements. The individual tasks are very varied and come in time slots of 5, 10 and 20 minutes for different energy levels. The customizing options are great, too. And it yells at you if you want it to. For like a couple of bucks it was well worth the investment.

    • JenniferP said:

      Great to know! I look forward to the Android version.

    • DeskGnome said:

      I also want to sing the praises of the UfYH app. I learned about the tumblr through this blog, and the app is a perfect extension. You can create your own list of tasks to accomplish, or go by the presets organized by room. It’ll buzz or chime after every 20-(or however) minutes and tell you to take a break, then let you know again when your break is over.

      Apple owners, if you’re interested, I definitely recommend buying this app. Doing so helps support the wonderful lady behind the UfYH tumblr. Android owners, an app for you is definitely in the works, but please don’t bug the woman about it.

    • Yup, it’s awesome. We’ll be doing a weekend cleaning starting tomorrow, but it has already been invaluable as a motivational tool.

  12. Sheelzebub said:

    “Also, is he gay?”

    I sincerely doubt it if he’s fucking you. Unfortunately, there are lots of straight d00ds who feel entitled to get orals but refuse to give them.

  13. I agree with the post — the guy does not sound like a winner, and if she doesn’t want to go down if he won’t, that’s a reasonable position.

    But this whole ditching guys who don’t go down business, even if you do… I would like us to get away from being all HE IS WORTHLESS DUMP HIM business. Because it can actually be totally okay. Some people do not like giving head! That’s okay! Sometimes they are otherwise fine to fuck and aren’t entitled dipshits.

    It’s all about whether you can negotiate what you want and be comfortable with that, not whether you have a fair tit-for-tat exchange of sexual acts.

    I find it so frustrating that people seem to think so…

    • JenniferP said:

      I don’t care about whether any person will do any sex act (and it says right there in the post, you shouldn’t pressure people to do stuff they don’t like!). I care about using shitty negs about feminism to try to get people to do stuff you want them to do but pre-emptively backing out of doing that exact same act for them.

      Anything done in that tit-for-tat way is probably boring, bad sex and a sign that it’s time for a different partner.

    • TR said:

      No oral would be a dealbreaker for me (for whatever reason – whether they were “too masculine” or just didn’t like it or lacked a tongue). If nothing else, I would talk to him about his perceptions of masculine and feminism (Why do you think feminists aren’t willing to go down? Why isn’t going down on me masculine?) – if he’s young, he may need prompting to, y’know, think.

    • General Expression said:

      It’s not the “what” in that story that deserves the DTMFA. It’s the “how” and the “why.”

      • JenniferP said:

        Right. I would not get out of that room without saying “Oh god, you’re right! You’re so masculine I can’t even handle the masculinity of your dick!” :fans self:

        Oral sex isn’t the end-all and be-all for every woman, and there’s a lot of stuff you can do to make your partner happy. A happy, satisfied partner isn’t going to play tit-for-tat games like this.

    • TheOtherAlice said:

      I think it’s probably just fine to not want to give head, and it’s probably just fine to have it be a dealbreaker. But, seriously, the way this guy went about the conversation is what made me think he should be dumped, stat, not the conversation itself.

  14. bananananadaquiri said:

    ‘scuse me, could I please ask for clarification on what’s meant by “lose a friend”? Because a friend of mine just died, so if it’s real loss by life circumstances (even if not death) then I’ll avoid it for now. But if it’s amusing “this so-called ‘friend’ turned out to be an asshole”, then I will probably watch it.

    • JenniferP said:

      It’s when a friend stops being your friend. No death.

      • bananananadaquiri said:

        Thanks

  15. Jo said:

    Can I just say that I find it really weird that men get uppity and weird about putting their mouth near a vagina that they intend to put their dick into eventually? It just seems like a fucked up double standard. “I’ll fuck it, but I won’t lick it!” If it’s so gross and touching it is so emasculating, what are you doing putting your sensitive and important parts down there? It doesn’t magically become gross depending on what you touch it with. “I’m too much of a man for oral!” is totally different from “just not my thing because I don’t like the taste/my jaw cramps easily/breathing through my nose is difficult/etc.” Just. WTF.

    Love, A Lesbian Who Is Probably “Too Feminist”

  16. twomoogles said:

    There’s this annoying perspective out there that going down on a guy is expected, but going down on a girl is a favour. It’s one thing to not like doing something, but it’s another to not like doing something *and* expect the other person will do it for you. Not to even touch on the way he expressed it. There are non-douchey ways to say ‘I don’t like going down’ (regardless of gender). And, maybe this is wrong, but I really don’t think you can expect something you’re not willing to do. Sure, if you don’t want to go down, but your partner offers to go down on you, accept! But you don’t get to expect head you’re not willing to give based entirely on your gender. That doesn’t even make sense, and also is stupid.

    • aliaras said:

      I mean, going down on someone with a cock and going down on someone with a vulva are totally different experiences, as someone who’s done both. Sure, there’s the whole “genitalia” bit, but the physical configurations are substantially different and have different icky parts. I will frequently do one or the other but not both — if my gag reflex is acting up, goin’ down on a cock is right out; if I don’t feel like having stuff all over my face, goin’ down on a vulva is out.

      That said, this dude is still a douche.

    • nosuchthingastoofeminist said:

      In my opinion, if anything, the expectation should be the reverse. I can’t speak for the original questioner, but 80% of women cannot achieve orgasm by vaginal intercourse alone. I do go down on my boyfriend, but he goes down on me much more often for the simple reason that it’s only fair that both of us should come, and if he comes during sex and I don’t, then he does whatever he needs to to get me off. A guy who refuses to do so is not going to get very far with the ladies, at least once they’re old enough to know better.

      • PetPeever said:

        So late with this comment, but THIS THIS THIS. They are NOT comparable, at least if the couple has PIV sex most of the time. If he doesn’t go down on me, I don’t get to come. If I don’t go down on him, he still gets to come, and his orgasm is still pretty much guaranteed because most people regard PIV as the “actual” sex which ends the sexual encounter. So that kind of you-scratch-my-back attitude drives me up the WALL.

  17. DDog said:

    I do have an i-thingy and can vouch for the awesomeness of the UfYH app! It has a 20/10 timer and will yell at you in all caps on request and you can do random challenges by room and create your own chore list and get stars when you accomplish stuff. I love it. Highly recommended.

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