The art of “no.”
Posted: March 23, 2011 Filed under: Captain Awkward's Dating Guide for Geeks, Dating, Enthusiastic Consent, Relationships, Sex | Tags: Dating, dating advice, how to handle rejection, Sexy Typewriter, the best way to reject 67 Comments »
Over at SexyTypewriter, there is a discussion about the best way to tell someone that you don’t want a second date. “See you soon” is probably not that way. “I could stop thinking about you” has the advantage of being honest, and the writer describes that awkward end-of-date feeling of “oh god…so many expectations and ways this could go wrong….oh god.”
I’ve done a lot of internet dating, and early on I was very optimistic about people. I looked for the good in everyone, I thought of ways to make things work, I talked myself into being attracted (hey, why not?), and I enjoyed the act of meeting new people for its own sake. Most people were not The Man Who Would Not Break Eye Contact or Gropey McTicklefight, most people were just disheveled nerds like me, and while I didn’t make many lasting connections I did have a lot of fun nights out of the house and discovered a lot of cool pockets of Chicago when I was new in town.
While I was very willing to go on first dates and meet people, I was pretty picky about who I spent further time with. I’m an introvert at heart and while I love friends and a good time and conversation sometimes often I find myself asking the question “Will this be a better time than screenwriting/finishing this novel I’m reading/playing CIV/being in a completely silent room full of silence?”
I also had numbers and our sexist dating culture going for me. I was a woman with a nice smile and huge…tracts of land… and an ability to be entertaining and keep a conversation going, so I just had to sit and look pretty and wait for people to write to me and then accept or reject them. I didn’t have to work at finding people to date, they came to me. So there was an unbalance in some of those interactions from the start – I might think “Hey, this guy seems nice and I’m free tonight, why not?” while the guy might be overjoyed at finally getting a response after weeks of getting no response and think “She must really like me to write back at all, this is so on!”
What I’m saying is that there were a lot of perfectly fine first dates that did not lead to a second date. At 25, did I handle this in a straightforward, cool, honest, mannerly way? No.
What would happen is that at the end of the first date the guy would ask me out for a second date and in the moment, under pressure, I’d agree. He’d say “We should do this again sometime” and instead of saying “Nah, I don’t think so” I’d say “Sure, that sounds great” and he’d say “Howabout Saturday?” and I’d say “I don’t think I have anything planned that day.”
Then Saturday would get closer and I’d start dreading the date. Not because the guy was a bad person, just, there was no actual connection there and now I was committed. Sometimes I’d be too chicken to say anything and find myself on that second date, walking through some neighborhood summer music and food fest, speaking in monosyllables. Sometimes I would just cancel. “I’m sorry, I forgot that I have other plans this weekend, catch you later.”
Most times the guy would understand. “Hey, it’s okay, though I’m obviously bummed out. Can we reschedule?” And then, when pushed to it by a direct question, I would finally muster the ability to be direct. “Um, I don’t think so. You are nice but I’m just not feeling it,” and the guy would be (understandably) frustrated and say “Okay, but why didn’t you just say so in the first place?”
This is a legitimate question. I was not behaving well by agreeing to dates and then cancelling them, but there was a reason I didn’t just say no in the first place. I didn’t know how. Also, I was afraid of Angry Guy.
Angry Guy responds to a cancelled date like this: ”But you SAID you were FREE and you AGREED and PROMISED now you are just being a FLAKE like ALL OTHER WOMEN.” In which case, bullet dodged – you don’t want to spend more time with Angry Guy – but what happens when you turn Angry Guy down in person? Angry Guy is pretty scary.
I’m relying on the work of Gavin de Becker here, his book The Gift of Fear is an incredible read and one of the most useful books about human psychology that I’ve ever come across.
Women are socialized to make men feel good. We’re socialized to “let you down easy.” We’re not socialized to say a clear and direct “no.” We’re socialized to speak in hints and boost egos and let people save face. People who don’t respect the social contract (rapists, predators, assholes, pickup artists) are good at taking advantage of this.
“No” is something we have to learn. “No” is something we have to earn. In fact, I’d argue that the ability to just say “no” to something, without further comment, apology, explanation, guilt, or thinking about it is one of the great rites of passage in growing up, and when you start saying it and saying it regularly the world often pushes back. And calls you names.
Creepy guy near eL station: “Those groceries look heavy, can I carry them home for you?”
You: “No thanks.”
Creepy guy near eL station: “Well, you don’t have to be such a bitch about it. I was just OFFERING to HELP.”
25-year-old me would stew all the way home, worried about hurting the feelings of the creepy guy near the eL station and wondering if I should have done something differently. 37-year-old me knows that you don’t have to worry about hurting the feelings of sketchy people on a dark street who offer you “help” you don’t want and then call you names when you turn it down.
Let’s pause briefly for some Basic Important Safety Stuff: ”No” is a complete sentence. If you say “no,” and the other person keeps talking and trying to convince you to go along with whatever it is they want, do what you can to extract yourself from the situation. This person is trying to manipulate you, and you don’t have to let yourself be manipulated. And if you hear a “no” from someone, the correct response is to back off immediately. No insults, no whining, no pressure. Just say “Okay, sorry to hear it” and move away.
25-year-old me was so afraid to say no that she’d agree to dates she didn’t want to go on just to avoid hurting someone’s feelings or provoking an encounter with Angry Guy. 37-year-old me (and hopefully you, at whatever age you are) would handle it differently.
If you’re just not sure, buy yourself time. ”Hey, thanks for asking. I had fun tonight, but do you mind if I think about it and call you in a day or so?”
If you are sure, and you’re sure that the person won’t turn into Angry Guy (or Girl – she is also scary) you can just say so. ”Oh man, thanks for asking. This is really awkward, because I had a good time tonight, but I’m not feeling that pull with you and I’d rather not.“
Ideally this is not an exchange you are having in person. I mean, the best case scenario is that you say your goodbyes after a date and then go home and think it over, and everyone leaves the door open for either further contact or a graceful end.
That’s why one of the best responses in the SexyTypewriter threads, from poster Monsterzero, is this one:
My interpretation of online dating etiquette is that at the end of the first date, I don’t ask for a second date commitment, because I don’t want to force an immediate decision. I do commit to further communication, and that’s how we set up the second date. Partly because I’m chicken and would rather not be rejected to my face, and partly because I’m kind of a big scary-looking guy and I don’t want a yes-let’s if she doesn’t mean it.
I really like that part where he is thinking about the safety and the feelings-of-safety of the woman and making sure he’s No Pressure Guy. I want No Pressure Guy to have all the dates with all the direct, honest, sexy No Pressure Ladies!
If you’re both feeling it, it will happen. You managed to go on one date, so presumably you know how to set up another one if you need to, and email is kinder if we have to take a detour to Rejectionland.
Readers, what’s your best/worst rejection story? Has anyone else let themselves get roped into going on unwanted second dates because you’re too chicken to say “no”?
I’ve been in a whole relationship because it was okay, he was a nice guy, did nice things for me in bed and elsewhere, and I wanted to be nice back but. Just. Not. Feeling. It. Finally, because I really didn’t want to get into the details that also weren’t as relevant as the NOT FEELING IT part, I said I was getting back with an ex that he knew when we met I was not over, and so he only tries to contact me once in a while.
I’m not happy with myself about any of it.
I was in the exact same situation when I was nineteen. It also ended the worst way it possibly could have – when he abruptly tried to ask me to marry him and then I HAD to say no. After that fiasco, I forced myself to back away from relationships from awhile and really work on me and figure out what I wanted. (As a side note, he had just gone through some serious losses in his life, so looking back, I suspect the marriage proposal was more out of desperation than a pure and genuine desire to spend his life with me. Not that there weren’t serious mistakes on my part since I was very young and, to be blunt, sexually confused, but now that I’m older, I realize that sort of commitment would’ve involved a more mutually expressive approach toward a subject that serious. Even knowing this, I still feel bad about it looking back.)
That’s the other important part of learning no – you could really hurt someone if you don’t.
As a person who went on lots of dates in the past year, I learned I am not a good live-action automatic date decider. I was never on a date where anybody did anything terrible enough for me to reject them immediately. Sometimes I had fun on a date because I saw a cool play or ate at my favorite restaurant. Or, maybe there was a pretty moment of movie script romance that was kinda fun to savor a bit.
Mostly, I knew I didn’t want to go on another date with a person when I was home, drinking tea, and finding myself shopping for new boys on OKCupid. Then, it was time to get out the email script of polite rejection.
Right – the date itself can be fun, and you can be flattered to be asked, even – but that doesn’t mean it’s a real connection and you don’t owe anyone anything other than honesty and good manners.
love the post
a friend of mind curated an entire show of women’s art (including some of her work) around the theme of “no”
was awesome and you’d love it.
hope you are well!
Sounds like a great show!
link to the show’s website?
Perhaps my distance from my Online Dating Experience has cast a rosier glow on my behavior and that of my dates, but I don’t recall any difficulty in saying no.
My stand-by sign off was “I’ll talk to you soon!” And then I would, by email. I didn’t take “see you soon” seriously, because I viewed it as an automatic thing. Like when you accidentally say “Love you” when ending a phone call with a co-worker because you only ever talk on the phone with your mom, and that’s how you roll. (Hilarity will indeed ensue.)
I can say that I never pulled a post-date fade-out. I ALWAYS thanked the guy via dating-service email (REAL email addresses are for second dates!), told him that I didn’t feel like we clicked, and (crucially to my mind) wished him well in dating and finding his lady (and/or dude. There were a couple of bi guys and the one poly guy).
I WAS guilty of a few email-conversation fade-outs, but don’t hold onto that guilt. There were plenty of dudes who both piqued my interest AND were willing to actually plan a damn date.
But basically, right on! “No” is EXTREMELY useful in all kinds of places.
Ha!
“I love you….in that sweater!”
Always awkward.
Email fade-outs totally don’t count. I did that so many times.
Fade-outs after a first date sort of are, but I had one that was rather charming.
Second date is totally ambiguous territory, but for third dates and beyond, I do think rejection should happen and happen live. Pick up the phone.
I understand why you’d feel that a phone call is the way to go – but (in my case), while my anxiety usually isn’t that bad, that sort of thing can intensify it to the point where I can’t even make the words come out. And if they do get pushy or passive-aggressive, sometimes I’ll end up agreeing to things I don’t want to do just to lessen the pressure of the anxious feelings flooding my system.
I don’t really feel good about handling things that way, but I’ve just had to accept that it hurts me a LOT more to try to push the issue then it hurts them to get turned down in writing.
(Also, I may be the exception – but I prefer written rejections? Because then I don’t have an awkward paused moment where I have to think about how to immediately respond… when in writing I can let myself have a little time to process and think through how I want to phase my reply.)
Do what works for you. Especially if you are dealing with someone who tries to talk you into things.
I am so proud of Monsterzero!
Sadly none of us are single enough to give Monsterzero the love and approval he deserves.
No worries, I met my Sweetie on Match and we’ve been living together for four years now!
I read The Gift Of Fear a couple of years ago and strongly recommend it.
The Gift of Fear is one of the most useful books about behaviour I’ve ever read! Everyone should read it but especially women. You will know why that creepy person is creepy. In my experience if someone isn’t going to read between the lines then they aren’t open to hearing no.
Man dude, this whole dating thing is poop. But if I were completely unable to say “no,” it would be even more poop, so at least there’s that. I’m still working on that, though. Thanks for the permission to do it over the phone or in e-mail rather than face-to-face. I mean, I didn’t actually need permission, but sometimes I feel like a jerk doing it that way even though I really shouldn’t. I do have a much harder time rejecting someone to their face, no matter how well-planned and gentle that rejection may be.
Good advice, blah blah, Gavin DeBecker, blah blah. I just keep thinking “OH NO, THAT POOR HOT DOG! He has nowhere to go! They were made for each other. Now he’s just going to end up wasting his life chopped up in mac ‘n cheese.”
OMG ME TOO
How is a life in mac’n'cheese a waste? That dog would be literally swimming in cheese! With appropriate use of literally and everything!
I needed this article! I was sitting around at 3am reading blogs when some guy knocked on my window, since mine was the only light on in the street–he’d locked his keys in his car, and wanted to borrow my phone. Then when he couldn’t reach the person he called, he wanted money for a cab ride to his mother’s. It was creepy, but he had puppy dog eyes and a plausible story, and I ended up walking to a nearby ATM and giving him the money. (Before I left, I gave a friend his full description and orders to raise hell if I didn’t come back in a timely fashion.) Then he asked if I wanted to get together for drinks when he returned the money. I made an awkward comment that I didn’t drink… but I’m going to come up with something stronger if he comes back, because my desire to spend time with a guy with boundary issues is pretty low. (Oh, and now I’m worried because he lives next door, and what if I have Angry Guy living next door and knowing where I live and seeing my car every day…)
You did need this article! There is a lot in this that makes me concerned about your safety and interactions with this guy going forward, so this gets its own post.
At a friend’s party, I meet this girl (I’ll call her Isabelle) that I have an instant liking to. We hit it off and have a great conversation. By the end of the evening, I’m thinking that I’d really like to ask her out.
A few days later, I ask my friend for Isabelle’s number and nervously call her.
«Huh, what did you have in mind?» She doesn’t sound too enthusiastic. I tell her that I’d like to go out for coffee or beer so we can get better acquainted.
«Is this going to be a date?» Oops, now I think that my goose is cooked, but she hasn’t said “no”. I tell her I thought we could see how things go. She accepts, but with no great enthusiasm, which kind of bugs me, but I don’t let it show.
«Hey, listen, I’m a big guy, I’ll understand if you’re not interested, just say so and don’t worry about it.» And I’m being sincere, I have zero interest in going out with a girl who doesn’t want to be there. But Isabelle assures me that she’s fine with the idea and we set a date.
The date goes ok, but the conversation isn’t as fun as the one we had that night we met. We do end up having fun and telling each other some pretty intimate things, but the comfort isn’t there. She’s the one who calls it a night and, as I drive her back to her appartment, I’m pretty convinced that there won’t be a repeat. And at that point I’m fine with it.
When we arrive, Isabelle has that face you have when you’re making a decision, then she shakes her head, smiles at me and says that we should do this again. I’m cautiously pleased to hear this, because I really do like her. We kiss goodnight and I take my leave.
When I call her back, Isabelle tells me that she’s too busy to see me that week. And she has that thing next week, so that won’t do. «Yeah, can you call me back the week after that?» I tell her “sure”, then we hang up. Of course, I never called back.
I was disapointed, but I wasn’t angry at Isabelle for not being straightforward with me and never felt like she led me on, because I have the useful skill of knowing when a woman is Just Not That Into Me. And I did get a nice evening with an attractive woman out of it, so yay me. But I do wish she had taken me at my word when I said that I would be fine with it if she turned me down, because I feel she could have saved herself some useless worry.
It sounds like you have the right attitude, in general, but isn’t it possible that Isabelle hadn’t quite made up her mind either way and was just giving it an honest shot?
I am a geek and don’t know how to respond straightforwardly to overtly romantic behavior, so when I get some I might come across as aloof when really I’m just confused – “Is this person flirting with me? Why?”
You’re right to point that out. And I do try to think these things through before I stop pursuing a relationship. As it turns out, in this case I know I made the right call. I met Isabelle again at another party and there wasn’t any friction or tension at all.
I do tend to have a pretty short cut-off point. In my youth, I was Desperate Clingy Guy, on his way to become Creepy Desperate Clingy Guy. I lost friends over it. But fortunately for me, they took the time to give me a wake-up call that pierced through the teflon fog that Desperate Clingy Guy surrounds himself with.
I managed to get rid of Desperate Clingy Guy, but I still carry him on my back. Whenever I have to push things in a relationship, it raises images in me of the person I was and the person I could have become and I don’t like that person.
Gavin deBecker, YES. Thank you for including his very sage advice.
Having divorced and then remarried a few years later, I had a brief dating window in between, and the opportunity to use some grown-woman insights to turn down a second date:
[after getting the "But why not?" interrogation that wouldn't go away]
Well, I’m simply not feeling any chemistry. And you know what? I could ignore this and go out with you again, just to avoid hurting your feelings, as my mom was always telling me to do. And then the second date would lead to a third, and I’d continue in the pattern of saying yes to everything you wanted just to avoid hurting your feelings, and then we’d end up married and it wouldn’t work, and we’d both be miserable and sooner or later, we’d get divorced, like the marriage I was just in for 13 years, child included. Now, tell me, do you really want to push me to go out with you again?
Yes, I really did say all that to the guy — I did say it with an ironic little smile, and to his credit, he accepted it and all was well. I think his answer (also with a smile) was something like “Well, when you put it that way, I suppose not.”
That encounter is still in my Top 10 Best Moments.
“But why not?”
Because you asked me that question, dude. Because you asked me that question.
I just came across the blog — you’re a fantastic writer.
It’s harder not being interested when they are and letting them down gently. Saying “no” is merited, but I don’t want to come off as a jerk. I know it’s hard to put yourself on the line. True or not I tend to put it on chemistry. I don’t even know exactly what that means. We don’t have chemistry… my test tube and your Erlenmeyer flask just weren’t meant to be together. Goodnight, Erle.
The worst is somewhere in the middle — liking the person enough to casually date, but not enough to commit to long-term. The other person’s expectations almost always grow with time, and if I’m not feeling the romance and being forthright about where I’m at in the relationship isn’t getting across, it feels like the only ethical thing to do is end it before they get more invested. Relationships aren’t really static things, even when my feelings in the relationship are. Sometimes the nicest thing to do is see it coming and nip it in the bud, even as early as date one.
Thanks for the compliment! I love your little story of the test tube and the flask who could never make it work.
I dislike the part of (heterosexual) dating culture that casts men as the pursuers and women as the objects – it’s fucked up for both parties, and I do recognize that it’s hard to psych yourself up to make a move and then get rejected, so my tendency is to start gently and politely – “Oh man, thank you for asking! But I’m not feeling dating feelings about you, and would prefer not to.”
And then, if you want to be super-classy and help someone save face, change the subject back to something you know interests them. So really it’s “Oh man, you are so nice to say so. I wish I returned those feelings, but sadly I don’t. Before it gets too awkward in here, how is (that thing you’re working on?)”
I love the “no is a complete sentence” quote.
Since you asked for our thoughts on saying no, here is my torrent, taken from extracts of my blog:
Posts connected to “no”
Whose body is it anyway? Boundary violations and assumed status
http://thedelphiad.wordpress.com/2010/05/12/whose-body-is-it-anyway-boundary-violations-and-assumed-status/
“a lot of behaviour we as women find irritating when it’s directed at us is exactly the kind of behaviour people direct at those they assume are of lower status, or less-than. Because the less-than do not object when others do things to them without their consent. The consent is assumed, because a less-than does not have the “right” to withdraw or deny it. This is the basis of every single violation of another human being, whether we are talking about some guy hovering over us at work, some stranger (man or woman) touching our new hairdo, or a brutal rape at the hands of the enemy.
Boundary violations are acts of dominance, of control. With or without conscious intention, they broadcast that we must accept our assumed and assigned place in the social hierarchy. Where the violation is explained as a “compliment”, here’s the usually unspoken message: a higher-status person has decided to acknowledge your existence and such attention has lifted you up from your otherwise-intractable invisibility. You can now express your thanks for graduating into full humanity.”
Those who must smile and those who may have “attitude”
http://thedelphiad.wordpress.com/2010/09/11/those-who-must-smile-and-those-who-may-have-attitude/
“The exhortation to “smile” and “get along with others” is a command to remember your low status and stay there. People with the proverbially desirable sense of humour are those who must be prepared to play court jester and smile when kicked in the teeth. This is what passes for being a good sport. It’s awfully convenient to those who have power and that’s the whole idea.
Many studies have correlated the right to express anger with higher status. Important people are serious. They’re allowed not to smile and laugh at everything they hear. If their pants are not ironed exactly right, or some woman dares to not be available and pleasant at all times for them, society forgives and understands them for seeing this as the equivalent of some poor person losing everything in a flood. Priorities change when you have others at your beck and call, or when society tells you that this should happen.”
Women, anger and status: taking the long view
http://thedelphiad.wordpress.com/2010/04/25/women-anger-and-status-taking-the-long-view/
” the expression of anger is directly related to status, regardless of gender: “Expressions of anger are often prohibited toward those of higher status, as they may constitute a challenge to the social hierarchy. One of the social nuances children must learn is that of deference, and who is considered an appropriate target for anger. This is particularly relevant for children from families explicitly marked as low status, such as those found in slave or caste societies, but it also applies to children from peasant or working-class backgrounds. … Although expressions of anger toward those of higher status may be limited, stereotypes of the working class (for example, in the United States) have often assumed that they are less in control of base emotions, including anger.” Thus, the “out-of-control” interpretation of women expressing their anger.”
The Man Who Didn’t Mean It
http://thedelphiad.wordpress.com/2010/07/12/to-the-man-who-didnt-mean-it/
Because we are women, the world expects us to be soft, kind and compassionate. Forgiveness is advertised as our very salvation. If you don’t forgive, the world tells us, you will only poison yourself. Anger is a luxury that you cannot afford.
That last sentence is quite telling. The idea of being able to afford anger illustrates exactly what’s going on: justice is a luxury. It only exists for the privileged. You won’t get any, so stop upsetting yourself.
This is awesome stuff, and good if I need to pull actual academic research out to back my broad claims. Thanks so much for sharing!
Found your blog via feministe and love it! This post hit home in so many ways. I read Gavin de Becker’s book over 10 years ago and it has probably saved my ass a bunch of times. It taught me more about dealing with people than 5 years of dating prior to that. I learned how to say No, a real No and not a ‘maybe no’. It is a useful skill indeed. And you are right, probably a marker of adulthood.
Yep, this had definitely happened to me.
I went on a first day with someone I met online after talking through email for almost a month. We met for dinner and ended up talking for many hours. We had a lot of the same interests, which was cool – but after awhile, I started feeling this strange, nagging feeling that something was off.
He would make an occasional weird comment like “With online dating, I’m afraid the pretty pictures are really fat girls in real life” or when I mentioned I was allergic to cats he said, “Oh no, that’ll be a problem if you come to my apartment, I have cats!” (not something you should really say to a person you just met…).
Despite the weirdness I was feeling, I let the date keep going because I felt bad. I tried talking myself into thinking it wasn’t a big deal. The most awkward part of the night was when we were parting. He kissed me on the forehead. That was…weird.
And STILL I agreed to a second date because I didn’t want to hurt his feelings. I talked myself into thinking the red flags I found were not that big of a deal. But as the second date approached, my anxiety and dread went way up. When he called to confirm, he began the conversation by telling me that he saw his family over the weekend and told them all about me. After one date. After just meeting.
Finally, I could take it anymore and VERY awkwardly said, I think I’m going to have to decline. When he asked why, I said “Well, you are a really nice guy, but I just don’t think I’m feeling a connection”. He was nice enough about it and we ended the conversation.
2 days later, the “Angry Guy” you mentioned came out. He send me a raging, insulting email about what a horrible bitch I was for leading him on like that.
Moral of the story? I should have followed my instincts from the beginning and just said no right away. I’m not proud of the way I handled it, but at least I made the decision before the second date happened. Scary!
I’m sorry he turned into Angry Guy – he had obviously made up a relationship with you in his head and had invested quite thoroughly in that – his angry reaction was not about you, it was that fictional person he’d made up.
It was enough that you didn’t like him enough to want to go out again, and now you know!
Right after I got out of a relationship, one of my best friends mentioned that one of his friends really liked me. It was a guy that I’d talked to at a few parties and didn’t know all that well. Apparently, Dude thought I had a great sense of humor and was pretty and smart. I gave my friend permission to give Dude my phone number.
Dude called me and we went out to dinner a few nights later. We joked around and the date seemed to be going really well. Until I asked The Question.
“If you don’t mind me asking, what made you like me so much?”
Dude made some vague comments about how funny I am, how smart I am… and then looked deeply into my eyes and gave the actual answer.
“I know you’re eighteen… but it’s really sexy that you can pass for twelve. I’ve heard that you… aren’t exactly innocent, either. It’s kind of hot.”
Dude then smiled at me in a completely proprietary, creepy fashion and reached across the table and grasped my hand in his.
I just stared at him. My first impulse was to pull free run like hell. But there were a few problems with this plan:
1. Dude loomed over me. I am 5’0″. He was 6’4″. I knew he had been on the track team at his school and was athletic. If I ran, he could catch me. And break me.
2. He made a comment about how he’d heard I wasn’t innocent. The only sexual act that I’d “participated” in at this point in my life was the time I was raped. My friend did not know I was raped, so couldn’t have told him. I asked Dude point-blank where he heard that about me and he named my rapist. I asked him how he knew Rapist. They were cousins, apparently.
3. I lived in a small town near a big city. He’d picked me up at my house and driven the two of us into the city. I was a 45 minute drive away from my house. There was no public transportation that could convey me home.
What I should have done is call my family/friends/anyone and asked them to come pick me up, regardless of the drive.
Instead, I gave an artful little laugh and told him that I’d never “do THAT” on a first date and that I barely knew him. He got an angry look on his face, so before it could escalate, I gave him a kinda flirtacious look and told him that we’d need to date a few times for me to get to know him before I’d really “feel comfortable enough to…” and trailed off suggestively.
He took my words at face value, that I’d eventually screw him after a few dates. He drove me home. I endured a few moments of adolescent groping and dashed inside my house.
I then called my friend and told him what happened. My friend was really protective of me, almost like a brother. He said he’d handle the rejection for me, because he could see how beyond freaked out I was.
I never heard from Dude again.
I am very lucky I wasn’t raped that night.
I’m so, so sorry. I’m trying to wrap my head around the idea of a rapist who recommends his victims to other rapists, but I can’t, BECAUSE IT JUST EXPLODED.
You handled this BEAUTIFULLY, and with every piece of wit and subterfuge and survival skill you had.
You shouldn’t have had to handle it that way. You should have just been able to say “Really? That’s the creepiest thing I’ve ever heard, also, your cousin knows that about me because he raped me – is that your plan, too, because we can call 911 now and save us all some trouble.”
I’m so, so sorry, thanks for sharing.
You know… I’ve never before categorized his groping and slobbering (I can’t call it kissing) as sexual assault before. It’s not like I don’t know what sexual assault is- I’ve been raped once and assaulted two other times.
But it clicked in my head when I was typing that up earlier… I never consented. I never even participated. He sure as hell never asked. It was assault, even if I was too stunned to classify it as assault at the time.
Huh.
Replying to your comment below (WordPress will only let us nest so much)…
I hope you have a good therapist, because that is a giant load of crap you shouldn’t have to deal with right there, and you deserve the support of a friendly pro in sorting it out and helping yourself feel safe again.
I’ve since left that area and moved, which helps a great deal. I don’t regularly see a therapist, I’ve had a lot of trouble finding one that I can work with.
I have, however, met a wonderful feminist man and gotten married.
I still get asked out on dates. I was naive enough originally to think that a wedding ring would deter potential predators, but I still get asked out… I wonder what that says about their perception of me, if they think my vows meant that little? Anyhow, most usually go away after I tell them I’m married and/or show them my wedding ring. When they don’t… well, that’s what me having grown a spine and a bitch stare are for.
He was the cousin of your rapist, who recommended you to him, like….a menu item? Like….like….My head! Exploding!
HED ASPLODED
PLZ LOOK AT CUTE KITTEN UNTIL HED IS BETTER
I’ve honestly never been sure if he was bragging or recommending.
Though I suppose in the end, it all boils down to the same thing.
Just chiming in with the Captain:
1 – WOW. Wow. Add my head to the list of exploded ones, because that guy… and his cousin… WOW.
2 – BRAVO. You handled yourself AMAZINGLY.
I really need to stop exploding heads. Brains are really hard to scrape off the ceiling.
And thank you.
Oh god. I’m so so sorry. You did such a wonderful job and I wish like hell that you had never had to know what you were capable of in a situation like that. I hope you never do again.
I have since bought a small can of pepper spray that hangs from my keys. I have never needed to use it, but the knowledge I have it with me is comforting.
I’ve also gotten a lot more in tune with my inner bitch and have learned to stand up for myself. I’ve discovered making a scene isn’t necessarily a bad thing- it can be a useful tool. If someone is bothering me or creeping me out, suddenly losing my volume control (“I said I wasn’t interested. Please stop harassing me before I call the police”) tends to make bystanders pay attention. No predator wants a bystander to step in or attain the ability to help pick him out of a line-up.
“‘No’ is a complete sentence” – I love that.
I left an awful relationship about two years ago. The defining of that relationship was him explaining to me that my “no” was irrational, unreasonable, etc.
To celebrate my freedom I got a tattoo on my right hip, under where my pocket would be. The tattoo says ” No. ”
Even with the tattoo I still have trouble with no, though.
If I had a dollar for every time I’ve had to say “Stop pretending that your emotions are better than mine, because you pretend that they are based on ‘logic’, you entitled ass” I’d eat a nice steak dinner tonight in a place with white tablecloths and a wine list.
Wow, what a wonderful, thought-provoking post! I just discovered your blog, thanks to a wise recommendation, and am looking forward to reading more.
Two quick thoughts on “no:”
One, in learning about consent and respect for their partners, men rarely hear anything beyond “No Means No.” While this is certainly important, it doesn’t go nearly far enough! Never in any of my reading, or any of the sex-ed I got in school, or the workshops on my college campus, had anyone mentioned the societal pressure that encourage women to say ‘yes’ even when heart and body are saying ‘no’… or anything about the hurt feelings that can come when someone says ‘no,’ or advice on how to deal with those feelings responsibly… or that consent exists on a continuum, with bright, eager green lights on one end, and flashing red lights on the other, and that there’s plenty LOTS of emotional territory in between. I think it’s terribly important that men (and women) be better educated on the finer points of consent… I mean, it’s anti-violence work that puts the burden of fighting rape on men, which we need waaaaay more of, and also just good information for anyone who wants to have a good, communicative relationship.
And second, that ‘no’ is complicated for men, too! Patriarchal culture tells me, as a cis, het guy, that I must always want sex, at any time, with anyone. It wasn’t until this year, at age 26, that I realized how much unenthusiastic consent I’d given, how much sex I’d had before I was ready, in the context of good relationships. I love sex, and I love women, and I loved THOSE women specifically, but it turns out that it takes a lot of time and emotional intimacy before I’m comfortable making that leap with someone… yet when my partners asked me if I wanted to have sex, I silenced those voices, because, ‘what guy doesn’t want to have sex, right?’ Wrong. Live and learn.
Yeesh. I don’t know what’s more amazing about Monsterzero’s comment: how insightful he is, or that we live in a world where such sensitivity is so rare. I mean, I’m a cis, straight guy who ALWAYS takes a no and honors it (Your language is brilliant: “no is a complete sentence”), and it would NEVER have occurred to me to hold off on asking about a second date to spare a woman the social pressure of saying no to a biggish man! So glad I read this here, and so glad to have had my eyes opened to yet another way that my behavior can support patriarchy if I don’t keep my eyes open.
Thanks again for a great post! Hope I articulated my idea alright… a lot of this lingo is new to me.
You did great at articulating your idea. Thanks for your comments.
[...] The art of “no.” « CaptainAwkward.com This is a legitimate question. I was not behaving well by agreeing to dates and then cancelling them, but there was a reason I didn’t just say no in the first place. I didn’t know how. Also, I was afraid of Angry Guy. (tags: relationships gender assertiveness) LikeBe the first to like this post. [...]
[...] were a few requests in the “no” threads this week to write about saying no at work. I want to write about saying [...]
[...] a spot-on and well-written piece by CaptainAwkward about “the art of No” that I must plug it, even though it’s brought back some unsavory memories. Who among [...]
[...] these posts is cathartic, almost, because I’ve been there and I know, right? No at work; No on dates; and more [...]
[...] think you might find some helpful stuff in “The Art of No” threads here and here. You’re not alone in feeling like you do, and it’s not an accident that [...]
Best rejection-gone-wrong story? Here’s one! I was at an open ballroom dance, and I danced a couple times with guy. He asks me for my number. I say no. (This was the first time somebody EVER asked for my number, so I was excited that I had had the guts to say no.) So he says, “Well, then can I give you my number?” I figure, “Heck, why not. I’ll just never call him.” So I go, “Okay.” So he HANDS ME HIS CELL PHONE and says, “Type your number in so I can call your cell phone, and then you’ll have my number.”
I was completely flabbergasted. I mean, what do you SAY to something like that? “THAT’S CHEATING, YOU ASSHOLE!”?? Having been caught completely off guard, I stupidly did what he suggested. He called my phone. And I put his number in my address list and set the phone to automatically reject his calls and send them to voicemail. There was further drama with this guy at later dances which I won’t go into here, but I think I learned a valuable lesson: next time they ask if you want their number, just say no.
Several months later I was at another open dance, and ended up paired with a random guy during the lesson. I tried to be friendly and helpful (I knew the dance better than he did), and he later asked me for my number. I said “No.” He went, “Oh. Sorry.” Well, I don’t want him to be sorry for ASKING, so I shrugged and went, “It’s okay.” He replies, “Can I have your home address?”
!!!!?????!!!!
You can bet the answer to that one was another plain no. I’m getting better at this.
[...] news, everyone, we’ve got SexyTypewriter here to teach another reader about the Art of No. If you like hilarious smart people (and I think you do) and if the dating pool sometimes feels [...]
I was followed home in the middle of the afternoon by a drunken guy telling me I was beautiful, eventually yelling at him to “leave me alone!”. I then went to my boyfriend’s, upset, and told him what happened. He had no reaction whatsoever. We are no longer together (for this and other reasons). There is a real need for male feminists out there! And female for that matter…
So needed this post.
On my first ever internet date (before y’all say anything I KNOW) I went back to the guy’s apartment, let him kiss me, and TIE MY WRISTS TOGETHER, all to avoid rejecting him and hurting his feelings.
Sometimes, now, when I look back on it…I just…what the fuck?!
I’m really working on that ‘no’.
Uh, no one is going to judge internet dating here. Internet dating is awesome. But yeah,”no” is pretty useful stuff. Be safe out there!
Oh, no, I didn’t mean you’d judge the ‘internet’ part of the date, but the ‘incredibly stupid and dangerous not-saying-no’ part.
I don’t judge you for that – that’s what Dear Fucking Prudence is for. But I’m really glad you are ok. Forgive yourself and be safe.
Dear Dear Fucking Prudence,
I am pretty sure I was raped by some guy on the internets.
Help!
Confused or Something
Dear Confused,
You weren’t. And why are you meeting guys on the internets? You’re asking for trouble!
Sincerely,
Dear Fucking Prudence
Thanks lovely Captain – I’m LOVING your blog/advice/ways of being/poems
[...] The Art of No [...]
Saying no to crazy guys is scary. First time out alone after breakup of a 12 year relationship, had a conversation with a couple at the bar, nice people. Guy sat down next to me, asked if he can buy me a drink, I say no thank you. He keeps talking to me, while I ignore him, buys me a drink anyway, I didn’t touch it. He’s saying crap like, come on baby give me a chance, totally creeping me out so I leave the bar, as I start the engine he is getting in his car, he followed me! I am freaking out. If I had it to do over I’d have driven to the police station, I was much younger then and all I could think of is my dog would protect me. So when I realize I cannot loose him I got my house key ready, took my car from zero to 50, zoomed in the driveway. Got my front door open just as he pulls in my driveway. I had a 180 pound black Great Dane who didn’t like strangers, I let my baby dog out and he went crazy barking and lunging, guy ran back in his car and I never saw him again. I was laughing like a loon and calling the guy many nasty things.
I discovered your blog a few months ago and have been working my way through the archives. So much wonderful stuff, I love it. I had to chime in to say that I finally was able to put an end to the harassment from a guy that I hooked up with a few times last year a couple of weeks ago. I wish I had seen your blog much earlier, because especially “no is a complete sentence” would have helped me a lot. I got involved with another guy a few weeks after seeing the persistent one, but he proceeded to spend many months trying to convince me to “hang out” with him again. It took me threatening to go to the police before he finally gave up. My favorite line? “Babe, ive slept with over 40 ladies and u were the best ive ever had” Cause oh yeah, that makes me want to cheat on my boyfriend with you.